Re: Women in Perl [was Re: Updating http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html ]

Hi Dave!

Thanks for your email. I didn't explain myself properly. See below for my 
response.

On Thursday 01 May 2008, Dave Rolsky wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > I met on IRC[1], or for saying "There's a girl on #perl", instead of
> > "there's a programmer on #perl" or whatever.
>
> This sort of thing is classic ***ism. You're making a big deal out of
> someone's ***.

No, I didn't. See below.

>
> Imagine if every time you logged on to IRC someone got all excited and
> said "There's a Jew on #perl". Would that make you feel comfortable?
Would
> you want to come back? Would it make you feel included in the group?

It won't but OTOH, what I said was on a different channel saying (and I 
quote):

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
there's a new chick in Perl [= #perl - my typo] called geekette who
learned 
Perl from "Perl in 21 Days"
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Now arguably, "chick" is a bit derogatory. Anyway, I was told that I
should 
have said that "there's a new programmer in #perl". This is like saying "A

guy I work with", or "A girl I work with" (or "a man" or "a woman"),
instead 
of saying "My co-worker".

This is a perfectly natural way to say it, while saying "A Jew I know from

work" is unnatural, while saying "A Jewish guy I know from work" is. OTOH,

one of the women on the channel where I said it said I should have said "a

programmer" instead of "a chick".

I never said "There's a girl on #perl" on #perl, or asked a girl if 
she's "hot", etc. I'm trying to be a gentleman. (Though it doesn't always 
work.)

>
> Part of creating a welcoming environment for any minority group is to
not
> make a big ****ing deal out them being a minority! Engage them as
> individuals, not as representatives of some group you're not part of.
>

Right. Of course, I don't mind it when someone asks me questions about my
life 
as a Jewish Israeli, and think many people like to answer my questions
about 
their lives in different countries and conditions. It's part of the fun of

IRC.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
Parody on "The Fountainhead" - http://xrl.us/bjria

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The good thing about software is that it's consistent: it always does not
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