On 30 Apr., 17:55, Marco van de Voort <mar...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On 2008-04-30, thomas.mer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<thomas.mer...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >> > One design criteria for Seed7 is: It should be usable without IDE.
> >> > That does not mean that I am aggainst IDEs, but IMHO simple things
> >> > should stay simple. I am sceptical aggainst languages which are
> >> > only usable with an IDE.
>
> >> I know very few systems that don't come with a commandline compiler.
In the
> >> Smalltalk realm there might be some, but in general a cmdline
compiler is
> >> always there.
>
> > There is some misunderstanding here. I did not speak of IDEs
> > without commandline compilers. IMHO much of the logic which
> > should be somwhere in the program is managed in the IDEs now.
> > This takes some burden from the programmers shoulders, but it
> > makes other things more complex. E.g.: Moving from an IDE to
> > another. I have seen people which try to move a makefile
> > build process to Visual-C and also people which try to migrate
> > a Visual-C project to Eclipse.
>
> This goes for any build process. IDE integrated or not. Of course one
can
> try to cut down on the amount of work to be done (e.g. like a lot of
pascal
> compilers that can compile a program by just passing the mainmodule),
but
> this has nothing to do with the IDE or not.
>
> > Without the 'right' IDE some programs are useless. For a long time it
was a
> > goal to make programming languages more ****table between operating
systems
> > and hardware. Now this goal is more or less reached (at least with
some
> > programming languages), but instead some programs start to depend on
the
> > IDE. With Seed7 I want to be more or less IDE independent.
>
> IDEs are im****tant for productivity.
IMHO IDEs do improve productivity, but the bottleneck is
somewhere else. I think that most of the time spend
in programming is not spend writing the program. It
is the time used to find an algorithm, to decide over the
interfaces to other modules and and the time spend for
similar high level tasks. I guess that good programmers
spend more time thinking over the design of a program than
writing it. That is my critic about IDEs: Managers expect
that programs written in classic (old) languages can be
written twice as fast because of the IDE. This is totally
missleading since a programming language and it's libraries
can improve the productivity of a programmer much more than
an IDE. An IDE cannot turn a bad design into a good one,
but the features of a programming language can lead the
programmer to use a better design.
Greetings Thomas Mertes
Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, ****table, runs under linux/unix/windows.
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