The message below is being cross-posted from the LogoForum. Please
reply here at comp.lang.logo and it will be cross-posted back to the
LogoForum. The original author of this message is
jotape1960@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gene!!!
I'm not so sure about what is that "all the teachers" think about
it. I guess the educational authorities have a "little" word about
it, too.
However, I agree with you about to look for a new vision of the
education itself.
Of course, we must to change some... official "politics". ??? I
can't see how.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!!!!!
Juan J. Paredes G.
From Curicó, Chile, South America, with love
__._,_.___
> The message below is being cross-posted from the LogoForum. Please
> reply here at comp.lang.logo and it will be cross-posted back to the
> LogoForum. The original author of this message is
> genetheil@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Thanks, Pavel. I'm glad to know you enjoyed it.
> I care deeply about this topic because, like many
> others, my learning style did not fit the model of
> teaching current when I attended school.(I'm 63) I
> suffered a lot and got poor marks because of that,
> although I understood the work and concepts well. I
> was a massive underachiever and never reached my
> potential. It's made me somewhat bitter.
>
> I look around and see how much more choice there is
> for the average student, and that makes me rejoice.
> And then Ilook a bit closer and realize that despite
> all this choice, teaching styles and philosophies have
> not changed appreciably in 50 years! Perhaps, not in
> 500 or 5000. Teachers are still convinced that they
> are bosses or slave masters or commissars or some
> other version of the alpha male style, even when they
> are women. It makes for despair. I'm afraid that Abbie
> Hoffman was right: In order to get a decent education,
> you must steal it!
>
> (the other)
> Gene
>
>
> > The message below is being cross-posted from the LogoForum. Please
> > reply here at comp.lang.logo and it will be cross-posted back to the
> > LogoForum. The original author of this message is
> > pavel@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > Gene Theil wrote:
> > > This has become a bit of a rant, and for that, I
> > > apologize.
> >
> > Not at all. I enjoyed every word of it.
> >
> > Pavel
> >
> > __._,_.___
> > LogoForum messages are archived at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LogoForum
> >
> >
> >
> > > The message below is being cross-posted from the LogoForum. Please
> > > reply here at comp.lang.logo and it will be cross-posted back to the
> > > LogoForum. The original author of this message is
> > > genetheil@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Phil, Dale, Gene Juan,
> > > Phil, you talked about the problem of getting back
> > > to a 2D mode after running an example that put you
> > > into perspective mode. I had exactly the same
> > > difficulty the first time I tried to run a 3D
> > > procedure. It was pure nostalgia to see someone have
> > > the same problem. and the same experience of the
> > > struggle to find it's solution.
> > >
> > > However, you solved it differently than I did. You
> > > accessed a fundamental resource that is almost always
> > > present when a student learns, that is, a teacher, ie,
> > > someone who might know more about the subject than you
> > > do, and is willing to share that knowledge
> > >
> > > I chose to do it differently. I went through the
> > > documentation thoroughly, nay, exhaustively, trying to
> > > find the answer to my question, as you did. After
> > > that, came a long period of increasing frustration, as
> > > I tried one thing after another, with no success. The
> > > only way to get back to the original state was to
> > > close Logo down and restart it. Of course, I did that
> > > without saving my work more than once, which made me
> > > crazy. At some point, working on a completely
> > > different set of procedures, I wanted to go out of
> > > "wrap" mode and into "window". Finally, light dawned:
> > > "window", "wrap", "fence, & "perspective", of course!
> > > The outcome was the same, but I think the process has
> > > some vital differences, none of which relate to the
> > > emotional states which we experienced, which seem to
> > > be the same for each of us, as they are most likely
> > > the same for anyone who struggles with a question
> > > which he or she knows to be a simple one, whose answer
> > > eludes him or her.
> > >
> > > The reasons why I chose to do it the way I did
> > > relate to my history and psychology and are not
> > > important except as illustrations of a general
> > > distinction which we need to make in the whole
> > > discussion of standards for Logo.
> > >
> > > That distinction is the answer to this question:
> > > "What is Logo for?". This teleological notion of a
> > > final cause comes into play here because of Logo's
> > > history as the result of a struggle by its creators to
> > > make something which could help people learn to do
> > > things for themselves, in ways which seem good to
> > > them. Truly, Logo is a philosophy of learning as well
> > > as a language. Because it is a language in several
> > > dialects (perhaps more dialects than any other
> > > artificial language), one can run into the same
> > > problems of translation as with natural languages and
> > > dialects, Juan. Sometimes, on this forum, you have
> > > asked questions about problems which you are trying to
> > > solve in Logo, which, quite probably, could be solved
> > > more easily in another language entirely. But you stay
> > > with Logo, for many reasons, I'm sure, among which
> > > must be that you believe that this language, and not
> > > another, helps your students learn things about math,
> > > and problem-solving, which can help them think. And
> > > you do this because it is also a philosophy of
> > > learning. I happen to agree with you, strongly.
> > >
> > > Constructivist thinking seems to be about, among
> > > other things, the power relations between those who
> > > know something and want to impart that knowledge, and
> > > those who wish to learn it. This world is filled with
> > > people who wish to control, guard, or deny knowledge.
> > > One has only to read the paper to encounter evidence
> > > of this. I mention no examples, for each will have his
> > > or her own favorites, and because I have no wish to
> > > turn this into a forum on politics. I am,
> > > fundamentally, a philosopher. I believe it is vitally
> > > important to empower people by facilitating their
> > > acquisition of the tools that will enable them to
> > > learn to think critically and well.
> > >
> > > I, personally, happen to believe that the best path
> > > to empowerment leads through the thicket of many
> > > dialects. I could make the argument that, in the world
> > > of ideas as in the world of living creatures,the
> > > combination of variation and selection is our best
> > > path to optimization. If a few people who use a number
> > > of different dialects of the language happen to find
> > > it inconvenient that there is no exact translation for
> > > this or that construct, and that they have to
> > > manipulate their programs a little to get them to
> > > work, I think it is a small price to pay for the
> > > strength and beauty that come from variation. The
> > > evolution of Logo is a (somewhat) living process, and
> > > like other such, is quirky and unpredictable. It can
> > > lead into barren cul-de-sacs and through inefficient
> > > by-ways. It is the dream of reason to make a thing so
> > > perfect it will never need to be changed again. Alas,
> > > that outcome can happen only for a work of art. Things
> > > which are in daily use, and for multiple purposes,
> > > change as their users change and as the uses to which
> > > they are put change. Perhaps we will will see major
> > > types evolve, such as one which optimizes use for
> > > list-processing and one for the graphics side, but I
> > > doubt it.
> > >
> > > This has become a bit of a rant, and for that, I
> > > apologize. I don't apologize for my opinions.
> > >
> > > (the other) Gene
> > >
> > >
> > > __._,_.___
> > > LogoForum messages are archived at:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LogoForum
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