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Re: is free, open source software ethical?

by Alan Crowe <alan@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Mar 5, 2008 at 11:20 AM

user923005 <dcorbit@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
> Oh, wait, they don't sell the CD -- that's a violation of GPL
> -- they sell a service contract.  

No, you've got this completely wrong. I don't understand
why, it is easy to find official position on the GNU website

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

Other people, with no interest in copyright or technology
manage to grasp this point. See

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/faq.html#gnu

They have their own, different, position

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/bfaq.html#freebooks

which I quote:

    But there is another, deeper reason to think twice about
    selling Dhamma books. Since the Buddha's time, the
    teachings have traditionally been given away free of
    charge, passing freely from teacher to student, from
    friend to friend. The teachings are regarded as
    priceless, and have been conveyed to us across the
    centuries by an unbroken stream of generosity --- the
    very foundation of all the Buddha's teachings. That
    tradition continues with the production of free Dhamma
    books. From the author, the stream flows onwards through
    those who give their time to editing, typesetting, and
    printing the book; through the donors who sponsor the
    printing; and through those who take care of
    distribution and mailing. If you are fortunate enough to
    receive a book borne on this stream of generosity, you
    learn an important lesson of Dhamma long before you even
    open the cover. The instant someone puts a price tag on
    a Dhamma book, you not only have to pay money for it,
    but you get a little bit less in return: you get a book
    that is merely about Dhamma, instead of one that is
    itself an example of Dhamma in action. Which one do you
    think has greater value?

They do not place their translations under a GPL style
licence because they are philosophically opposed to their
sale. Now that you have seen a real life example of people
with a philosophical commitment to free=gratis rejecting GPL
licencing of their own work, because it permits sale, you
are in a better position to understand the GPL.

GPL forbids unbundling the rights. Sell all or none, the
choice is yours, but don't try to divide society into
Digital Lords, with the full bundle of rights, and Digital
Peasants, with only usage rights.

Alan Crowe
Edinburgh
Scotland




 221 Posts in Topic:
is free, open source software ethical?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-04 10:34:28 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Paul Rubin <http://phr  2008-03-04 10:42:16 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"j.oke" <jav  2008-03-04 10:46:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-04 19:00:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-04 11:25:10 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-04 19:38:01 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-04 11:18:43 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Paul Rubin <http://phr  2008-03-04 11:31:06 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-04 19:43:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ken Tilton <kennytilto  2008-03-04 15:07:24 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"j.oke" <jav  2008-03-04 11:26:05 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
user923005 <dcorbit@[E  2008-03-04 11:39:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-04 19:50:48 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"[Jongware]" &l  2008-03-04 21:53:11 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Alan Crowe <alan@[EMAI  2008-03-05 11:20:49 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
dave_mikesell@[EMAIL PROT  2008-03-04 11:41:49 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-04 19:58:01 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Sohail Somani <sohail@  2008-03-04 19:44:54 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
santosh <santosh.k83@[  2008-03-05 01:20:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Peter Christensen <pet  2008-03-04 11:55:45 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
toby <toby@[EMAIL PROT  2008-03-04 11:56:04 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Kaz Kylheku <kkylheku@  2008-03-04 12:00:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barry Margolin <barmar  2008-03-04 17:40:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barry Margolin <barmar  2008-03-04 18:05:20 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mikel Bancroft <mikel@  2008-03-04 16:53:57 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
<nobody@[EMAIL PROTECT  2008-03-05 11:38:03 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Kaz Kylheku <kkylheku@  2008-03-04 12:13:23 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Frode Vatvedt Fjeld <f  2008-03-04 22:08:07 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
user923005 <dcorbit@[E  2008-03-04 12:21:34 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Kaz Kylheku <kkylheku@  2008-03-04 12:26:14 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Daniel Pitts <newsgrou  2008-03-04 12:29:15 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Nicolas Neuss <lastnam  2008-03-05 10:47:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
mike3 <mike4ty4@[EMAIL  2008-03-04 13:31:51 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-04 17:05:04 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 05:52:41 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-04 23:58:28 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 08:28:03 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-05 09:32:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 18:12:07 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-05 10:30:11 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 18:50:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barb Knox <see@[EMAIL   2008-03-06 09:56:56 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Walter Banks <walter@[  2008-03-05 16:08:03 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barb Knox <see@[EMAIL   2008-03-06 10:42:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Cor <cor@[EMAIL PROTEC  2008-03-05 21:52:15 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
amorgan@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-03-05 14:11:55 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barb Knox <see@[EMAIL   2008-03-06 12:38:08 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christopher Browne <cb  2008-03-05 23:15:39 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Walter Banks <walter@[  2008-03-05 16:22:12 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barb Knox <see@[EMAIL   2008-03-06 10:42:52 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 05:57:56 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 10:27:58 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 13:08:08 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 16:46:31 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Thant Tessman <thant.t  2008-03-06 15:24:56 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 17:30:40 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 15:34:34 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 18:42:42 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Don Geddis <don@[EMAIL  2008-03-08 15:23:56 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-05 18:02:11 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-05 22:56:09 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-05 21:17:52 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 10:27:58 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 06:33:21 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-05 23:39:59 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 09:11:27 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 02:25:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 10:57:09 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 07:05:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 15:31:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 13:12:40 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-07 01:19:33 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 17:45:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Thant Tessman <thant.t  2008-03-06 16:19:30 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ben Franksen <ben.fran  2008-03-07 02:08:13 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Thant Tessman <thant.t  2008-03-07 16:52:07 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ben Franksen <ben.fran  2008-03-15 02:21:16 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Thant Tessman <thant.t  2008-03-14 21:37:36 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Rajappa Iyer <rsi@[EMA  2008-03-06 16:12:03 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 17:44:47 
Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 17:48:34 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 21:16:54 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-07 02:52:13 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Damien Kick <dkixk@[EM  2008-03-06 21:29:04 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-07 04:14:49 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 19:08:02 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-07 14:01:40 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-07 13:14:43 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-07 21:12:28 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-08 00:14:02 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-08 08:42:15 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-08 01:07:50 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-08 09:41:54 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ken Tilton <kennytilto  2008-03-08 05:35:11 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-08 09:54:19 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-08 21:04:55 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Pascal Bourguignon <pj  2008-03-09 11:07:49 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
santosh <santosh.k83@[  2008-03-09 15:43:43 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Matthias Blume <find@[  2008-03-08 09:49:53 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-08 09:47:39 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Matthias Blume <find@[  2008-03-08 18:23:57 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-08 16:41:41 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Matthias Blume <find@[  2008-03-08 22:41:32 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-08 23:32:12 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
Matthias Blume <find@[  2008-03-09 15:04:50 
Re: Random data cannot be compressed
gisle@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-03-09 14:18:04 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Rajappa Iyer <rsi@[EMA  2008-03-06 18:18:24 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-07 02:28:28 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 19:11:57 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Rajappa Iyer <rsi@[EMA  2008-03-06 18:33:41 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Glyn Millington <wista  2008-03-05 08:30:54 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"Matthias.Blume@[EMA  2008-03-06 14:34:20 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 17:42:55 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Blume <find@[  2008-03-06 17:57:17 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Tim Northover <T.P.Nor  2008-03-06 08:27:37 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 01:01:53 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Tim Northover <T.P.Nor  2008-03-06 10:04:27 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 04:31:43 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
mike3 <mike4ty4@[EMAIL  2008-03-04 13:31:58 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Tayssir John Gabbour <  2008-03-04 13:38:46 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
William Ahern <william  2008-03-04 14:12:36 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
gavino <gavcomedy@[EMA  2008-03-04 14:31:08 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
gavino <gavcomedy@[EMA  2008-03-04 14:33:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark VandeWettering <w  2008-03-04 17:17:10 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-04 15:51:49 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 05:48:08 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"David B. Benson&quo  2008-03-04 15:53:05 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Joost Diepenmaat <joos  2008-03-05 01:14:00 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Joost Diepenmaat <joos  2008-03-05 01:19:58 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-04 16:21:16 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Joost Diepenmaat <joos  2008-03-05 01:24:50 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Joost Diepenmaat <joos  2008-03-05 01:26:20 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ken Tilton <kennytilto  2008-03-04 21:42:30 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
CBFalconer <cbfalconer  2008-03-04 17:06:22 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Andrew Reilly <andrew-  2008-03-05 02:37:16 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
vishnu13@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-03-04 18:47:14 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Barry Margolin <barmar  2008-03-05 00:31:01 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ken Tilton <kennytilto  2008-03-04 22:02:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ken Tilton <kennytilto  2008-03-04 23:21:45 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Phlip <phlip2005@[EMAI  2008-03-05 06:21:02 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-04 23:34:51 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 08:08:18 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
CBFalconer <cbfalconer  2008-03-05 21:02:53 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 05:44:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Randy Howard <randyhow  2008-03-06 14:37:22 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 15:23:28 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-05 00:57:41 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ulf Wiger <ulf.wiger@[  2008-03-05 10:47:41 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Robert Uhl <eadmund42@  2008-03-05 09:44:24 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Chris F Clark <cfc@[EM  2008-03-05 17:54:33 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-05 01:06:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-05 02:48:52 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-05 07:01:51 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 15:20:31 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
lisp linux <gmail.com@  2008-03-10 23:46:01 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Sohail Somani <sohail@  2008-03-05 15:06:27 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Walter Banks <walter@[  2008-03-05 10:10:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
CBFalconer <cbfalconer  2008-03-05 21:06:23 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Robert Uhl <eadmund42@  2008-03-05 09:25:50 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Walter Banks <walter@[  2008-03-05 15:07:43 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
CBFalconer <cbfalconer  2008-03-05 21:09:56 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Robert Uhl <eadmund42@  2008-03-06 17:57:58 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark VandeWettering <w  2008-03-06 00:58:25 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Pascal Bourguignon <pj  2008-03-06 09:16:58 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Robert Uhl <eadmund42@  2008-03-06 18:01:37 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-05 09:02:42 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-05 09:17:50 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Slobodan Blazeski <slo  2008-03-05 09:51:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-05 10:05:07 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
gavino <gavcomedy@[EMA  2008-03-05 10:46:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Nelu <spamahead@[EMAIL  2008-03-05 18:52:38 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 19:23:46 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Nelu <spamahead@[EMAIL  2008-03-05 19:32:46 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-05 19:45:22 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
porfirion <zrolis@[EMA  2008-03-08 16:08:53 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christopher Browne <cb  2008-03-05 19:50:40 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Nelu <spamahead@[EMAIL  2008-03-05 20:01:57 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Alessio <alessiostalla  2008-03-05 15:51:18 
do we need to 'nationalise' free open source?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-06 01:25:27 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve O'Hara-Smith <st  2008-03-06 11:34:43 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
spinoza1111 <spinoza11  2008-03-06 04:16:51 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"Bruce C. Baker"  2008-03-06 07:32:12 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
LeLapin <Ipub@[EMAIL P  2008-03-06 15:08:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Benkard <mulk  2008-03-06 04:46:34 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Richard Heathfield <rj  2008-03-06 13:16:55 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 06:41:59 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Benkard <mulk  2008-03-06 05:27:14 
Re: do we need to 'nationalise' free open source?
Campo <duncanrb71@[EMA  2008-03-06 06:12:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Campo <duncanrb71@[EMA  2008-03-06 06:18:19 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Campo <duncanrb71@[EMA  2008-03-06 07:17:42 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-06 08:03:13 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Don Geddis <don@[EMAIL  2008-03-06 11:08:41 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Don Geddis <don@[EMAIL  2008-03-06 11:10:51 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon@  2008-03-06 12:59:01 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Willem <willem@[EMAIL   2008-03-06 21:30:05 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Steve Schafer <steve@[  2008-03-06 16:46:31 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
"Matthias.Blume@[EMA  2008-03-06 11:28:51 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
George Peter Staplin <  2008-03-07 02:55:12 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_  2008-03-06 20:00:48 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Don Geddis <don@[EMAIL  2008-03-06 21:30:30 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Blume <find@[  2008-03-07 07:49:33 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Blume <blume@  2008-03-07 08:54:28 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Paul Wallich <pw@[EMAI  2008-03-07 11:51:24 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Blume <blume@  2008-03-07 11:29:40 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Paul Wallich <pw@[EMAI  2008-03-07 12:51:25 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Matthias Blume <blume@  2008-03-07 17:00:35 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Don Geddis <don@[EMAIL  2008-03-06 21:36:44 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Don Geddis <don@[EMAIL  2008-03-07 10:22:32 
Re: do we need to 'nationalise' free open source?
Mark Tarver <dr.mtarve  2008-03-07 21:13:16 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ingo Menger <quetzalco  2008-03-10 04:18:43 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Ingo Menger <quetzalco  2008-03-10 04:25:36 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-10 06:15:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Thant Tessman <thant.t  2008-03-10 17:08:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-11 02:00:29 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
=?UTF-8?Q?Stanis=C5=82aw?  2008-03-11 09:27:32 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Abdulaziz Ghuloum <agh  2008-03-11 06:47:06 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark VandeWettering <w  2008-03-12 12:52:13 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-11 02:56:11 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Doug Mazzacua <nospam@  2008-03-10 12:20:33 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Christophe <christophe  2008-03-17 03:33:28 
Re: is free, open source software ethical?
Mark VandeWettering <w  2008-03-17 16:34:29 

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tan12V112 Fri May 16 0:48:37 CDT 2008.