llothar <llothar@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> So i don't bite here. Universities are by definition good for research
> (at least they
> should) but are they able to implement good development tools? I don't
> believe it.
Well I see this a bit different. I found GHC and Ocaml to be on the
"higher" quality side, and especially in Ocaml they really spend much
time on useful tools and even wrote some debugger. They just come a
bit short if we're looking at integrated development environments...
ISE-Eiffel does run circle around them in this area IMHO:
But if we come do development tools. The Smalltalker do have nice
things and the stress their integrationess, unfortunatly they forget
to include really decent editor ;-). But if it comes to browsing or
debugging they are quite good.
> I haven't seen it.
Well I disagree
>
>> Well tool development is expensive and you either have to ask for a
>> high price to cover your costs or you have to sell large
>> quantities. It seems that most people are very happy with the state of
>> the tools
>
> Are they? Isn't it that reality is just disappointing enough so that
> people
> do not for more at the moment. I hear they screaming. Especially when
> it
> comes to Cell-XBox games and multithreading programming. Nobody is
> satisfied
> in this area, because for many use cases the traditional tools do not
> really help here (using multithreading in games is much harder then
> using
> it to speed up a Ruby on Rails webserver).
They may scream and the may curse but they still do development. The
tools are maybe lacking it does not matter as long as people just
wrote software with it. Maybe they would buy something but as I've
learned if there is an alternative to pay for or free. Then people
will spend more time on the free stuff than paying for anything, YMMV
of course.
> Sure but there have never been so much "programmers" in the world.
> Almost in every family you have at least one website owner. And the
> chance
> that he had at least a look at PHP source code is high.
Well yes but for PHP the tools are probably good enough....
>
> For me people who do sports or work on there cars or guys who spend
> half of
> there life hunting down ladies in the local disco are strange. So
> what?
> It's not that strange and it's not lossing ground.
In comparison to the whole user base yes. It's getting less and less
important, you can get an application in nearly every area. Even we as
programmers just use many tools. I do not do programming my
Webclient. I'm jus using it. And so the people are looking for things
which they are interested in and then the most of the time find
anything suitable. That's enough for many. And if we come back to
programming, there are excellent choices one can make (without any
special order)
1) Eclipse for Java
2) gcc and gdb on Unices be it with or without GUI (have I wrote ddd
;-)
3) thouands others, many cross-platform. I just invite you to check
out (in no particular order) LispWorks, AllegroCL, Ocaml, Ruby,
Python, Perl, Tcl/Tk, Realbasic, Squeak, Cincoms Smalltalk,
OpenWatcom, DrScheme, Eiffel, C, C++, D, SBCL, CLisp and so on and so
on.
>
> Eiffel is dead, the Eiffelists are just to busy programming to realize
> it.
Well as long as anyone is still developing it is it not dead in my
point of view. If development fully stops then there is some end, I
for my part see e.g Sather as dead.
No new software will be written in it and no one works on enhancing
it. Eiffel in comparison is very alive. We may not like where it's
heading but fact is, development in and with Eiffel still takes
place. Even new software is written in it and at least on two tools
development takes place. As long as we look over GPLed software the
Eiffel tools are free and with all respect to other IDEs, the ISE
Eiffel IDE is among the best IMHO.
The libraries are of high quality so you really can count on it. I
even dare to say that the IDEs in C are not that good (especially on
Unices) and if it comes to support for "commercial Unices" then I'd
argue people having to developt there are among the "hardest", vi some
tools with a command line and printf ;-(
It's amazing what they've done with such tools.
so have nice day eiffel-hacking
Friedrich
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